[00:00:00] So recently I've been doing a lot of work on what it takes to be a creator. What is my unique voice or my creative DNA that makes my content mind, that connects it with the right people and that provides insights and things that are actually helpful that move people forward in a meaningful way. And what I came up with is that there are three different areas I think, that make a creator grow or a creator unique.
That first part is that self, your experiences point of views. Goals, dreams, aspirations, the things that you believe in, the things that you don't believe in, the things that you're running away from and the things that you're running to all shape your DNA second pillar here, uh, of growing as a creator in a sustainable way.
Is that how that self relates to others? How are you positively influencing others in a way that helps them move their lives [00:01:00] forward? In a meaningful way, and how are you influenced by other people in a way that doesn't stamp their point of view over yours, but you're able to incorporate? Make your own to strengthen that core creative DNA.
And then the third thing is what knowledge are you bringing to it? That's more than just the average. It's more than common sense, common knowledge. It it's more than the best practices, but it's that additive nature of creativity, which is layering more bricks on the wall of knowledge, kind of flowery, but.
I'll go with it. So in today's episode of Creators the Crush, we're gonna be talking about these three things yourself, how it relates to others, and beating more than best practices. With my friend and mentor, Jeremy Ends. He is the founder of Podcast Marketing Academy where he helps [00:02:00] expert based businesses add a hundred KA month more to the bottom line through defining and finding their creative voice.
It's a great conversation about creativity, about that creative self, how it relates to others and beating. The commoditization of knowledge in your your market, so I know you're gonna love it, and let's go into the episode. Welcome to Creators of Crush the Show that helps you beat normal results in your creative career so you can build the life that you want.
I am your certified high performance coach and host, Shawn Buttner, and let's jump into it. We've talked a lot about creativity and I'm trying, I've been trying to figure out for this show, like where does the high performance stuff meet creativity? Um, so. The question we're gonna be exploring today is, are you the reason why your creativity, um, [00:03:00] isn't, uh, growing or isn't a viable business?
Or it isn't dot, dot dot, right?
Yeah.
Um, and the, the assertion is, it's probably you because you're the common denominator. We all have a. Unique set of perspectives, of inputs, of influences of things we want to go out and accomplish, and it kind of makes like our unique creative thumbprint. Like how do you think of that for yourself and for the people you've helped with in your podcast work the last five years?
Yeah, it's, uh, it's interesting because there's the, the thing that you always hear as a, somebody wants to get into business or creating, and it's always like, look at the stuff you were into as a kid. And, you know, that's probably the hint. And I think it's true, but it, I always hated that response 'cause I never, I, I thought like, I liked playing video games and I liked, uh, playing with Lego and I liked riding my bike.
Those were like, the three things that defined my childhood was like bike riding. In the summer, Lego and video games in like the [00:04:00] winter and evenings, and I was like, that's not a what's, what's the business there? Then later I came back around and realized that all of those things in strange ways are actually the seeds of mm-hmm.
What I like about my work, but they're more fundamental building blocks than they are obvious analogies, and so you could make the argument like, well, if you like Lego, you like, you could be an engineer or something, which is probably true. But like now I realize like, yeah, there is, the Lego piece is there's a designing things and there's an assembling things, there's taking things apart.
There's like, my brain kind of thinks in these components of like, I always love like the Lego diagrams where it's got the exploded like schematic almost. And like here's how all the, the rods go through for the axles of the car or whatever. And all these pieces fit together. And I, I realized just a few years ago that that's actually how my brain works after somebody.
Made a comment that made me see that, and I feel like now being within like the podcasting space and I've kind of like feel like I first mapped like the external edges of it and then just started going deeper [00:05:00] and it was like almost applying that same then Lego building thing where it's like pulling things apart and being like, okay, so this thing matters for podcasting.
It's like, well, what does that actually mean? And like how does that work? And like okay, if we're talking about getting listeners into the show. The easy thing is like, well, we need to get more exposure. And then I was like, okay, that makes sense. And I started thinking, what is, but what makes when you get exposure, what makes somebody click on a show?
And then that led to this whole deep vertical of like, oh, there's actually all kinds of things. There's like dozens of touch points and different things. And so when I look back now, I'm like, oh yeah, this all makes logical sense. And then the, the video game example, there's this, this thing about like game mechanics, which I, I now think are really interesting and like I use, you think about.
Board games and video games all the time in when coming up with show concept ideas of like what creates tension, what makes it familiar, but interesting every time, like there's all these things that games have mastered that you can apply to all kinds of content. It's like now on the other side of it, I realize like, oh yeah, it was the underlying, like the substrate of all these things that actually [00:06:00] applies in my work.
I just didn't know what it was. And so I think that's, it's hard to do. Finding those clues in your past kind of creative, um, experience your, your life. But I, I do think like they're all there and I think what I now think a lot about encouraging people with and with myself is like mm-hmm. When you feel a pull towards something, you should indulge it.
I love. That observation of having that creative impulse or that creative pull. And I feel like I got into creating things because I wanted to follow that more and I kept getting shut down in a corporate environment. Mm-hmm. And, you know, uh, a process and system are really helpful when you need to have repeatable results.
You know, people like control. But, um, I think that being able to follow that impulse is such. A key thing, and it's a common denominator and a lot of the creators I've studied that have
Yeah.
Made it, and I'll put that in air quotes, right, because there's,
yeah.
That's another part of the DNA. [00:07:00] Like what is making it?
Is it having one client that's like six figures or seven figures, or is it having a million. You know, clients that support you through donations, you know, or I, I think it's really interesting. Um, so for me growing up when I, I had a, a, a book that I made in like third grade and said I wanted to ride bikes, play video games, and write books.
Uh, I had two of that, of those three happen for me in my life over the years. Um, when you talk about game mechanics, I think this is a really interesting idea of. Having something in your creative DNA and following that into what you're doing for work. Uh, could you talk a little bit more about how you view game mechanics and how you bring that into creating a show or advising people on how to improve their shows?
Because I think that's just. Super fascinating.
This is more of a recent one, I would say in the past few years as I [00:08:00] became more aware that this was a whole very rich and well rigorously researched field of mm-hmm. Like how do all kinds of games get designed? Uh, there's a great episode on the Tim Ferris show with, uh, the guest name is Ilan Lee, and he's the founder of Exploding Kittens, which I believe has been like the bestselling game for many years in a row.
Um, but the. The things like, there's, there's so many types of games. There's game shows, which
mm-hmm.
Use a lot of the same devices. There's board games, there's video games, and they all use them a little bit different, uh, differently. But one of the things is these kind of like feedback loops where, where these gameplay loops, where you think about this in like a video game is very classic here, where it's like you.
Start out, your character's really weak, let's say in a certain type of game. And you gotta go do a bunch of tasks and you gain skills, you might gain equipment and you also gain gain experience actually playing the game as the user. So your in-game character gets stronger, but you learn, maybe there's certain like combo moves you need to [00:09:00] do and there's like coordination that needs to happen.
And so you need, you get better at those and your character gets better and then you know, the next time. Basically everything just repeats. It just is a little bit harder and it might be in a different setting. And so this is an example of like applying something like that to a show. You know, there's like a level which might be an episode and so there's like a bunch of stuff that happens.
You basically, you go fight some guys, you go unlock, solve this puzzle. You think like Legend of Zelda or something. Mm-hmm. You gotta fight people, you gotta solve puzzles, and then there's like a boss at the end of the level and it's like that could happen. That is now a repeatable loop that you just do that.
10 different times throughout the game. It's actually a very simple structure, but it feels new every time. Mm-hmm. Because it's a different part of the world and there's, you know, different bad guys to fight. There's a different boss at the end. You're gaining different equipment and skills and things like that.
And so it's actually, from a game designer's perspective, it's just copy pasting a bunch of times. But to the user, it feels totally. New every time because enough variables are changed that it feels fresh, but it also feels familiar and you feel like it, it actually reinforces itself in a way and [00:10:00] becomes almost more enjoyable.
Um, and so that's something that I think a lot about with podcasting, where the. This is a bit of a blanket statement, so I, I don't actually believe this, but I'm gonna say it anyway, that the ideal show has this infinitely repeatable format where you could just keep putting in guests or topics, and there's a structure to it that the structure is what's interesting, less so than the guest or the topic.
Those things are added. They're like amplifiers, like the structure. You could put anything into it and it would be interesting, but the better the guests you get, the more interesting the topic, the more that is kind of amplified.
Okay, so, so talking you back to this, um, having your creative thumbprint on it, this is like part of your creative DNA is the experience you have running your show.
Um, and are you doing it a new game every time? It Zelda, it's Mario, it's, or you playing the same game and getting really good at the core mechanics of your show Yeah. To where. [00:11:00] I really like that analogy and that, that insight that's super fascinating.
It's actually interesting to me what, what you, how you just phrased that is that there's, 'cause I always thought about it from the listener's experience, but there's also the side of the host where you develop this, it's like you are the one playing to some extent and you're kind of coplay with your, uh, your listeners.
But there is like, as you do the same thing more often, you get more deft and adept at it and like you are able to, you know, this is. There are the skills you could almost think about from a video game perspective. Your guests that come on, those are like, you're leveling up the equipment that you accrue in the game where it's like you're able to get better and better guests the more you go.
And so you become more powerful that way. But there's also like your ability as the player that you can acquire all this equipment, but if you can't still like do the combos or the moves or whatever, you can still get stuck and you can't like buy your way out of it in some way, which is, is similar. And so I think actually, yeah, having that structure makes you.
Get better at your specific show, uh, much faster over time than when you're like trying to do a [00:12:00] bunch of different things in every episode and there's never one, uh, similar way to do it.
I guess switching gears a little bit on creative thumbprint, as you were unintentionally kind of discovering you had this ability that this is the Jeremy way of doing things, like this is your voice.
Yeah. Um, it's something. I think a lot of creators, especially if you have corporate experience and you're coming into mm-hmm. Um, something that's highly structured and now you can go anywhere and like, you know, you were trained to like, think about a problem in a particular way and maybe that doesn't serve you going on.
How, um, so two things I missed, right? The first thing is, um, how important was that unintentional writing? And this will lead into the, the, the next question. Um, but
yeah.
And, and how do you help people maybe that were more like me, try to figure out the Sean way of doing it or the
Yeah. [00:13:00]
Tom way of doing things or whatnot.
Yeah. The, so the writing, it's interesting 'cause I've had, I, English class was always my, like, worst performing class in, in school. I was always a huge reader, but not a writer really. Mm-hmm. Although it's funny, when I was at my, uh, my mom's place a couple years ago, she dug out all these like old childhood things and there was like these stories that I'd written when I was like seven years old or something that I was like, wow, these are like proper, like there's a narrative.
There's like good guys and bad guys. Like there's a proper little story. And so I was like, okay, maybe I, that was always there, but it, that went away for a long time and it wasn't till like. With the photography thing and then getting into podcasting that I started writing more. It's a skill that like once you do a lot of writing, now I have 10000% confidence that I can write about.
Like any day I can sit down. Mm-hmm. And I can come up with something. I've got enough ideas and I know how to work with them. That was like a thing that occurred at some point after a lot of writing. That was a huge, just like confidence boost where I was like, oh, I [00:14:00] can just do this on command now. And my cohost Justin and I did an episode on.
On our show about, uh, compounding and, and like how everybody talks about how results compound in creative work and whatever. Mm-hmm. But we kind of took this approach kinda like what we're talking about here. It's like, but why, what does that mean? Like, is it just like you do the same thing and it eventually works?
And the, our thesis is kind of like, actually there's a whole bunch of stuff that com compounds, which is like your skill compounds, your network compounds, you have more resources that compound. And so it's actually like all these micro compoundings that eventually lead to things really accelerating. And so I think about now where like.
I can come up with like product campaigns and like write 20 email sequences that are all pretty good without really breaking a sweat. It's like, whew. I remember when I just like agonized over that for weeks writing these emails and rewriting and, and, and now it's just like, oh, this is like a muscle memory thing.
And it's like when you get to that point, now you're in a great place to, like, you don't have to expend mental energy on that and so you can spend on other things. And so that's been. The, [00:15:00] like, tail end of the writing and I, I now always think about this, where I think for, to your second question of like helping people through that to some extent.
That I, to me, the metaphor is like, it's, you reach the bottom of the barrel and it's like, oh, there's nothing left to say. I, I said everything. Like I, I, I just think there's no more ideas and like, I've comprehensively covered this topic. And then like at some point the people who like the bust through the bottom of the barrel and they're like, no, there's more here.
And the, the bottom of the barrel, I think, or the barrel itself is kind of all the stuff that you've seen other people write about, which is kind of your known universe of topics. And I think the thing that shifted for me. Between that time and when I came back to podcasting was my, I no longer. Believed that there was a correct one correct way of doing things.
And I also, and so that was kind of where people get imposter syndrome is you think you're gonna be found out because like there's some like academic body that like knows the answers to all of this. Mm-hmm. And that you're gonna get called out and it [00:16:00] was actually something that. Seth Godin said on one of his episodes when somebody, a listener, uh, wrote in with a question about like, you know, I, I, I really find myself resonating with what you're saying, but how do I know this is right?
Like, what's your research? And Seth's response was like. Research is not my job. My job is to say, I'm living my life and this is how things seem to me, and here's my argument for why. And does that seem like that like matches your reality? It's not like this is the absolute way it's done. It's like this seems to be right and here's my case for it.
And hearing that and doing a lot of writing. Then I think unlocked way more ideas where I was like, oh, I can write about how I perceive something and make a case for it, and I can be wrong and I can be right. And a lot of these things, there is no answer. And it's just like, what feels best to you to kind of navigate this uncertainty that everybody's going through?
And so I think that was the thing where I was like. Maybe it's even less about like, busting through the bottom of the barrel. It's just like exiting the barrel and being like, okay, that's like, here's all the stuff everybody else is writing about, but I am free to write about everything and [00:17:00] interpret kind of like what I'm seeing in my own way and reflect that back.
It's, it's the Jeremy Barrel. It's, it's you that, that's fantastic. I think on imposter syndrome too. Um, I'll highlight this because I know this to be true from you, from my experience, and here's my case. Mm-hmm. Is that a lot of times too, if you really care about what you're doing and how it impacts people, um, that's usually another, like, I think imposter syndrome's inevitable and whatever you do, and, um.
I know you really care about the people you help and about podcasting as a topic and nature and all the, all the things. So, um, and I think that comes through in your work in a very clear way, which is part of your thumbprint that I just wanted to acknowledge. Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, anything, um, so. If, if we are the common denominator in our creative DNA, anything [00:18:00] about like self-reflection or understanding ourselves, which I guess is kind of what we were exploring here.
Yeah.
That maybe we haven't covered. That comes to mind. Um, to wrap it up,
if I think about the creators that I know who are most successful, like they have. Strong awareness of their work, and they have strong opinions on their space and their work and the way to do things that are not like necessarily universal.
It's not like everybody must do the things this way, but they, they do kind of like have those opinions that like, you should generally, people should do it this way or I should do it this way, or whatever. People are stupid for doing it some other way. And so I think a lot of artists, creatives and, and like people who are very successful in, in many fields, they do have a, like a strong.
What would I even say? There's like a love of the craft, but there's like, they obsess over understanding it in detail mm-hmm. As well. And like all the little pieces that, that make it up. And so I think that's something that is, a lot of people don't have that and there may be other ways to be successful, but I think it is, is [00:19:00] helpful if you do have that.
Absolutely. I know as a recovering software engineer that, you know, one of the, the greatest things you can do is like, break apart. A function and some software down to its base components to really
Yeah.
Get an idea of what's happening and why it's probably not working if you're at that point. But, um, the most successful folks there are constantly decomposing things to break it down Yeah.
Into the base pieces.
Yeah.
Um, like Legos, you break it apart and then mm-hmm. Rearrange it so that comes back again. Um. I guess last kind of question on this line is would be who are some, uh, creators that you admire that you think everyone. Could learn some solid components from, you know, that some of the basic building blocks.
Hmm. Yeah. I mean for, so let's, let's start with the, like, most influential for me, uh, Seth Godin is [00:20:00] probably, there's probably not even a close second to that. I don't, he doesn't produce this podcast anymore, which I, I think I, mm-hmm. That's the only show I've like, probably listened through twice. Front to back.
Oh, okay. And over like a hundred plus episodes. Uh, that one, that's the thing that really got me into him. And then I still subscribe to his newsletter. Uh, I read that not daily, but like somewhat regularly. Uh, and I've read many, many of his books as well. And I think, what would I even say is the, the key thing from him?
The, he's a great writer and storyteller in a succinct way. That's something that I certainly like aspired to and wrote very much in like a Seth Golden style. My first, like three months when I was writing. Oh. And beyond that when I did the daily, uh, writing. Um, I think also the, the thing that I like and that I think most people like is his ability to connect.
Obscure topics to a point to pay off to. And he's, he's at a point in his career, he's got such a reputation that like every episode, blog post, things like that, start off, you're like, where is this gonna go? [00:21:00] And you kind of don't care 'cause you know he's gonna pay it off. And that's something that I, I find like he's just masterful at and that I try to work into, to my writing to not as much and not as good a degree, but.
So that's, I think for, for him. And then I also think like he is such a interesting case in like having a high ethical bar while also being a super like fan and nerd of marketing, which is like not two things that people, people tend to think that they're opposite. And so he really reframed the idea of marketing for me.
Um. And so that was a big breakthrough. Um, outside of him, one of the, there's a copywriter and a founder named David Hyatt. Uh, he founded, he's founded several companies. Um, the first was a clothing brand called Howie's that I think sold to Timberland, uh, years ago. And then he founded a, a denim company, uh, called Hyatt Jeans, HIUT, um, or Hyatt Denim.
Um. They, I found my way into them through their brand, uh, story video that they did with, in partnership with Shopify. It was like a 30 [00:22:00] minute video and, uh, it was actually in one of Seth Godin's akimbo courses on storytelling. And it was a reference as like, check out this video. And I was like, okay, I'll check it out.
And, uh, it was like a thir, I thought like, it's gonna be like a two minute video, and then I see it's 30 minutes. I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna watch this. And I was like, about to close. But in like the first 20 seconds, it like, I was like. Okay, let's keep watching and then like immediately watch through the 30 minute video and then immediately go to their store and like, buy jeans.
And uh, I was like, whoa, what just happened there? And that was, was really interesting. I was kind of analyzing like, what worked about this on me. And so I got into their ecosystem and his newsletters had been a huge influence on me, the way he writes sales letters or sales emails and newsletters. Um, the thing that I love about.
Hyatt, which he's now sold. Um, and he has another company called the DO Lectures, which is a live event kind of company and Oh, cool. And they do online courses and stuff like that? Um, they have, so the denim brand and the DO lectures are [00:23:00] based in West Wales, um, in the uk. They have such a strong sense of place to it, and which they like weave a lot in the importance of the place to the companies.
Even though you could argue it's irrelevant to some extent, it's like, in some sense it's pure marketing. Even though I, I wouldn't say they would feel that. Like, I, I think that's one of the interesting things for me, having traveled so much is like, I think that's why it resonates with me is I know how much.
I'm a different person in different places in subtle ways. Like you might not observe it on the outside, but there's a different feeling to place and I was like, ah, there's, I, I feel like something really strongly resonates with that. And so I sometimes more than others, really tried to bring this, like, okay, we're interacting in this like online manner.
Like how can I bring in like more realness to this in some way or another? And like, how can I like. Bring this, like a sense of place to it or like bring some part of where I'm based or whatever that might be. That showed up in a bunch of ways that, that [00:24:00] has been a, like a really interesting one for me.
And then I'm trying to think like the other, I, I get, um, this is not a specific person necessarily, but I, uh, played. Uh, I will, I do play music. Uh, I can play music may, maybe I don't play music right now. I can play music. I used to play in bands and I'm like a big music. I dunno if I'd say I'm music nerd, but like, music's like a very important thing to me.
Mm-hmm. And I feel like the, one of the influences that is very important to my work is like. Punk and metal and like hardcore ethos kind of, which is like the music that I, I still listen to a lot, but like we did way more in my like twenties and there's just something about like that energy that I always feel like that is what I want to come through in my work.
And like when I'm writing my best stuff, it's like that's the energy. And so it's not, it's not, it's like a collection of bands, specific bands and music that like, that's, I have a playlist when I'm like wanting to write like something that. Really, like, is punchy or, or whatever the feeling is. [00:25:00] It's like I immerse myself in that.
And like, you most like sales campaigns, like that's the same playlist. Like I'm always listening through. It's like the songs that I feel like, man, I, I feel like I should have, I, I could have written this, I never could have, but like, it feels like a part of me. Like, it's like, you know, there's like a song that just expresses something of yourself that like mm-hmm.
You wish you could have said in some way or played or whatever. It's composed.
That makes me so happy, um, to hear that like I'm not the only one that, um, kind of follows that. Um, yeah. Constantly have music playing and been thinking about, um, exploring song crafting.
Mm-hmm.
And one of my favorite, um. I guess artists is, uh, Anton Newcomb from the Brian Jonestown massacre.
Okay. Okay. Really great. Like psychedelic, psychedelic garage rock and stuff. Yeah. Um, very, very awesome ear when he talks about, and in any interview I saw just landed as an offhanded comment is like, yeah, I just listen to, [00:26:00] I'll listen to the same song over and over and over again because it makes me feel the way I want the song to feel that I'm writing.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, mm-hmm. That is super, super fascinating, uh, and everything we do, how the environment can kind of shape that and talking about influences, you know, a c space is part of a, uh, connection or community. And we talked a lot about space here, probably 'cause of your wanderlust. Yeah. But, um, yep.
I think I, I do think it, it, it is important. Hey, it's Sean. Before we get back into this episode of creators that crush. I wanted to invite you to a free 30 minute call if you are struggling with creative burnout, with confidence, with trying to. Make progress on your creative endeavor, and so on this call, spend 30 minutes talking about one of your big goals or aspirations, or we'll talk about something you're struggling with [00:27:00] and the whole goal of the call is to get you moving with some personalized habits or.
Tips. And so I just wanna interact with people and that's why I'm inviting you on this three call free call. So if that is interesting to you, please go to Shawn Buttner dot com and you'll see a button right at the top of the page called Schedule My 30 Minute Call. We'll get it all set up and we can help you start to progress again, we can help you go from crushed to crushing it as a content creator.
So with that, scope that out and we will get back to the episode.
This is a, a weird one, but like I, yes. Um, I have like a, some weird feeling that I, I, I wrote a whole essay on this in creative way finding. I think it was about, uh, I always hate this cliche idea of finding yourself. I think there's like, the way it's talked about usually is like very cliche, but then I was like, actually there's a interesting, like practical.
[00:28:00] Thing that I'd experienced. Whereas like you, you find people or places or things that somehow connect the dot, that's like, like, like songs where it's like, oh, that is a piece of me and I find this with, for whatever reason, like the UK and Ireland coastline. I feel like that is just like my geography in some way.
I wasn't born there. I've been there many times, but I just, it always feels like there's almost like just an energetic, like this is just like a part of me. And the other thing that I think was interesting about that is that those things. There's one thing that's like recognizing that and then there's almost inquiring into it is like, what, what is this part of me?
Mm-hmm. It's almost like you can find yourself by, you can find yourself out there in the world and all these disparate things and those start to like, it's almost like a negative image where it's like you, you find the cutout of yourself in some way where it's like, oh, there's all this stuff that somehow is a part of me and like I'm somewhere in the middle of all of this.
It's like a weird thing to e explain and, uh, but I, I totally [00:29:00] feel it and I feel like every time I find one of those things I like write it down. I'm like, oh, this is important. Like, mm-hmm. And that's, there's some kind of creative inspiration or I can, I don't know, I like to surround myself with those things and it almost like helps me come back to some part of myself when I want channel this like pure essence.
Oh, that's awesome. I love that. And I think too, taking it a little bit further when you can identify those things out in the world and you surround yourself with it, they're also like flares for other like-minded people that, like the coast of Ireland, that like music, that like traveling and riding bikes or Legos or whatever, you know, it, it's, it's a way to help build community to be like, oh, like.
We're similar enough and it's, it's building these similar, these bridges. Yes. Um, that make it so powerful when you're trying to build an audience or connect with an audience mm-hmm. A lot of times, like people you don't see, you know. Yeah. Uh, I always think the mysticism of this [00:30:00] work is being able to emotionally impact someone.
Yeah.
In their phone on a screen somewhere. Um,
yeah,
it's really amazing. Like all of Yeah, it is. Yeah. So getting onto the third leg of the, this triangle that we're, we're working through, um, about ECI or finding your creative DNA to be successful as a creator or not, I guess, you know, what holds you back?
Um. How do best practices and kind of commodified results maybe or commodified information impact you as a creator in your opinion?
Yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting 'cause I do think you kind of have to. You kind of have to absorb it all. And this, I, I would think about this a lot as like a teacher and a coach and consultant is like, how is it possible to get people past?[00:31:00]
Like, do you need to make the mistake? Is it possible to avoid the mistakes? Or can you only really learn the lesson you need to learn once you've actually done it? Mm-hmm. And I don't really know, like I think there are things that you can, the right. Nudge at the right time can help people avoid something, but so often it feels like you really need to like do the thing wrong first and exhaust every like dead end, uh, and shortcut that you thought was gonna get you there, um, before you like figure out the next thing.
Um. And it's, it's kind of like that bottom of the barrel thing. Again, it's the same concept. So I do think like the best practices, I think there's two purposes, maybe. One is like you follow the best practices, you actually do learn a bunch of skills, and then you, the next thing is like you have to, the real benefit.
Breaking free of the best practices and getting over that hump. And I think a lot of people don't. I think a lot of people become pretty proficient at doing the best practices and never actually do realize, like that's just like. It's like the [00:32:00] 5%, it's like everything good is on the other side of that.
And so it's, you need to learn those things and then you need to move beyond it and look at like, okay, how do we, I take this baseline knowledge that I now, uh, have under my belt, and then how do I start like experimenting with it and playing with it and like being creative with it and trying, bringing my own stuff in here and
mm-hmm.
Almost like assuming that they are flawed. This is actually going back to the previous conversation about influences. One thing I think about a lot is. There's almost these two sides. So I mentioned like some people that you might not like a lot of things, but finding like what is interesting about them.
The other thing that I think is really important is disagreeing with the people, your idols. Mm-hmm. And so I think about like. Seth Godin, I find almost like I, I almost can't like, find anything wrong with him. And there are certain things that I'm like, no, I, I think he's wrong about that. And I, I could make a case for it.
And I think that it's, IM important to almost go out looking for the flaws. Not like in that like, oh, they're a bad person, but like they're thinking is wrong because nobody's thinking is a hundred percent right. Mm-hmm. [00:33:00] And even if it was in one time and place like. That everything always changes. And the the other thing is that best practices lead everybody to the same end result, which is inherently generic and cliche and un distinctive.
And so. It's like you can get to a point, I think this is where so many, if we talk about like coaches or small business owners or service providers, they do all the best practices and they end up with a commodity business where their landing page language sounds the same. Their like company name sounds the same, their services are all the same.
They work with people in the same way. Like everything is just totally generic and you have no. Pricing power. There's no reason somebody would sign up, pay double to work with you versus someone else. There's no wait list because you are just one of all these other ones, and so it's kind of like you can scrape by as a business owner doing that or a creator, but you're never gonna get to the point where you like actually have more margin in terms of like time or profit or you know, space to invest in more creative projects or whatever it [00:34:00] is.
Mm-hmm. You're. Only following the best practices to that point. And I think the benefit, again, like I was talking about with my writing now, is like I don't really think too much about structure or anything. I just feel my way into it. Like you would with music or something like that where it's just like, ah, I've got this like note in my head, or this little phrase or something.
There's something there and then you just like feel your way into it and it's kind of a detachment from the structure. But I think you do need to learn. Like I, I can. Write Well, I can, I can write good emails that also perform well because I did the work previously of like annotating, copywriting emails and all this stuff and trying to figure out what's actually going on here.
Did it really badly for a number of times and like tried to do the formula and then realize like, oh, this can actually, like, there's ways I can just do this more naturally without trying to over-engineer it.
Right on. I, I feel, I agree that, that I think best practices are like a stepping stone to get to a certain level of thing and I think the trap,
yeah,
especially if you like structure, like say you're a former software engineer, um, [00:35:00] that again, I, I got to the point in my workings where like it.
Didn't feel like me.
Mm.
And then there was frustration in like, how do I move on from here? And I, I think most creators kind of have a path maybe similar to that. I mean, it kinda goes back to like that creative intuition you have. Training that to know like, oh, this is good, or this is, there's a, a way to improve it.
Yeah. And I, I'll tie this in 'cause topic of the day, like ai, like I feel like AI and best practices are kind of similar in getting converging onto a point, uh, of common knowledge. And then there's like a, that's like earth you need to break through the atmosphere to, to get to other cool worlds. So. On this topic then for yourself, are there any, um, have you noticed any patterns or common practices in the last year and [00:36:00] podcasting or being a creator that people should be looking out for?
I, yeah, the thing I've been thinking about a lot, well, there there's, I guess there's two pieces to this. The one is that I kind of like in the past year or two. A couple of those things that I've been very focused on of like peeling back. The, the layers was, one was really around content strategy specifically for businesses who are doing content marketing.
So not like a creator business model, but a model where you have a product or service that you sell and you're using content to market it. And I started like thinking more about like what's. Like what are, what's the, how does content marketing work? Like everybody talks about this, okay, you gotta like attract an audience and then you gotta nurture them and then they convert.
And I was like, this whole nurture thing, like is very vague and amorphous. So what's going on here? And so one of the things that I have been focusing on there is this idea of like, okay, there's all this stuff that needs to happen in. Our content to move somebody closer to a sale and that [00:37:00] nobody ever learned any of this.
And so just mm-hmm. Not to like leave that there without, uh, expanding on it a bit further. The very brief version of this is called, uh, there's an idea called the Chain of Beliefs, which essentially is that there's six categories. You could call it either five or six categories of beliefs that, uh, every customer needs to have before they buy something.
And so the job of our marketing is building those beliefs so that somebody is even capable of considering and, uh, you know, uh, buying our offer. And so that's very different and more structured and more intentional than create content that gets people to know, like, and trust you, which may, for some people, end up building those beliefs because they fight, feel their way into it.
A lot of people don't. So the, the, the thing that I realized a lot in talking or thinking through all that is that I, and most people learned content marketing from people who didn't really know and how it actually worked or what it was about. And then a lot of those people just started emulating it.
And so it's, of course we got this like flywheel of people teaching content marketing to [00:38:00] content marketers and, you know, whatever. Mm-hmm. This happens so often in the creative, uh, kind of business world, but. I think about that as podcasting as well. Like if you look at, there are millions of shows in existence.
The average is boring, it's uninteresting. It's people who are not great hosts or guests and that's fine. Like, but it's interesting that I was just thinking about this today. So often we hold up like average as like a bar that's worth at least like aiming to be a bit above average, but in almost every field, like you kind of need to be in the top like.
For sure, 5%, if not like one to 2% to experience any meaningful reward from it. When we look at people around us, most of it by definition is average, and so most of it is worth ignoring and doing the opposite from, because like if you're looking at all the people you follow on Twitter, all the podcasts you see.
It's like, okay, these are average, probably a representation of the average and they're probably not getting that good results. Like it's probably not worth actually emulating. And [00:39:00] so it's more about like, okay, how do we, how do we find the people who are doing truly exceptional things and how do we see, like, what are they actually doing?
And then I think, you know, to tie it back in this conversation, I think you often find that they're doing obscure, quirky stuff that would only work for them. And you're like, oh, well I can't emulate that. And they, they have some superpowers that you don't have. And so it's not even, you can't even do it.
And so it's like there's very well trod paths to average and there's not very many, or if any, paths to like truly exceptional.
I think that that's definitely true. And, and I think then like when it comes to. Improving yourself or getting like you're going to be average before you're great. 'cause that's, oh yeah.
Just on, on the path. But the key is how do you continue to grow? How do you continue to improve and get more excellent day after day? Uh, 'cause it's very easy to, like Q Men, nature is like, Hey, I figured something out. Let me just repeat this over and over and over again. 'cause I understand how it works.
Even if it's not [00:40:00] the result that I want, I know what I'm going to get, you know? Mm-hmm. So I think what I'm hearing, and maybe you believe this, the trick is to maybe take a look at what other people are doing kind of as a platter, just to kind of get ideas on. What could be served, and then figuring out how you're going to make each of the pastries yourself with your resources, skill level, competency, uh, and trying to find your version of, of that.
Yeah. And I think the, the thing like, we all kind of resist early on, especially looking at other people's work who are doing similar things to us. 'cause it's just confronting because we can see that, of course when we're starting out, there's, there's a lot of people who are better than us in mm-hmm. Uh, almost every way that you could be better.
Mm-hmm. And so we don't do that. But I think the thing that I really think about focusing on, there's. Looking at what's working for other people. I like observing a market or an industry and looking at like, [00:41:00] what are the cliches in the generic stuff? This is, now I have my whole list of stuff not to do.
Everybody says this, everybody says that. It's like, okay, let's make a different promise here, or, or structure the show differently. And, uh, that I think is much more useful and allows you to kind of like you, sometimes you can not know exactly where you're heading, but you can know I'm heading away from that.
And that can lead you to something more interesting.
Hmm. What's pulling you? Creative instinct pulls you, but also, um, the example that you're, you should not do is
Yeah.
Pushing you away. I like that.
Yeah.
So cool. All right, um, wrapping up, uh, I know if you are listening and you have a show, like a podcast, uh, Jeremy has a really great assessment to help you figure out how to make your show more excellent.
Uh, called the Ears Framework. Uh, we'll have that in the show notes, but I know it, it, it is a very comprehensive look at your show [00:42:00] to identify weak points that can help you find your way to the true you. Yeah. Your show?
Yeah, yeah. It's essentially, it's like, uh, I think it's 20 questions, takes about two minutes, and it covers these four categories that are kind of required to, to grow your show.
And, um, you go through it and it'll give you a score on each of those categories as well as your kind of overall score for your show. And then there's a companion course that comes with it, uh, on the back end showing you exactly like, okay, if you're scoring low in this category, here's probably the reasons why that is.
And here's probably what you wanna do, um, to build those out and improve your growth and potentially sales as well.
It's amazing. Uh, I absolutely love it. Um, so kind of I guess wrapping up, is there anything that you particularly loved or thought, oh, like that's super interesting from our conversation here?
Yeah, I, I mean, I think the, the conversation, like, I'm always fascinated by the connecting the dots backward type, uh, scenario. The other thing that, uh, we didn't touch on but is. [00:43:00] Tied into all of this is that this is actually interestingly enough, uh, maybe it's not surprising. Coming back to one of the people I mentioned, David Hyatt again, he had a, a comment, uh, this was probably in, in one of his newsletters, maybe it was a LinkedIn post, um, or it might've been in one of his courses around like, when we all have this like idea of like finding our voice and he had this reframe of it that like, you know, you.
We all have our voice, you just need to release the hand break. And I was like, when I heard that, I was like, oh. And I think that's true in a lot of things where it's like we have that inside of us and we are actively suppressing that in some way, even though we might not really be aware of it because we're looking at either best practices or like we're looking at, here's how to write LinkedIn hooks in 2026.
And so we're like, oh, this is how I gotta write in this tone and whatever, and we're actually not doing what we would be more distinctive and more. Kind of us. And I think that that's, it's true in, in writing and podcasting and elsewhere, but it's also true, kind of like we talked about at the start with, you know, maybe I'm really interested in [00:44:00] this topic, but it's not relevant to my thing.
So I'm, I'm not gonna talk about it all if I'm really into like, nature books and I, I read a book on trees. Like, I'm not gonna use that 'cause that's too weird. Like it has nothing to do with podcasting. Uh, and I probably, maybe I shouldn't even spend my time reading that book 'cause I should instead read this like, new marketing book or what, whatever it is.
And I think that that's actually like we, we all feel pulls toward things and we often like self-censor or have the hand break on in some way that we don't allow ourselves to indulge ourselves. And you know, there's some level of discipline I think that needs to come in. Like if all you wanna do is like.
Play video games all day. You know, we could, maybe that's not the most productive, but at the same time you could be like, what if I played video games all day and I studied like these game mechanics and I was like, huh, this actually, then you use that and channel it into your work. It's like, maybe that was the most productive thing you could have actually been doing, and it creates this hyper distinctive like lens into your topic that nobody else has.
So, uh mm-hmm that, that idea of, you know, this, we all have this poll already, and if we just like, acknowledge that and indulge it, I [00:45:00] think that's a, a core kind of theme here.
I'm hearing it as connecting more to our humanity. Mm-hmm. You know, we're not all one sided, like we are multifaceted people and there are connections if you're, and I think that's the fun part of being a creator, is there, there are these weird connections that we can make and only we can make.
Only we can make though. And when you are able to articulate that and somebody else is like, like. Punk music or metal or whatever. That's the feeling I have, and I couldn't articulate it until somebody else said it. That's the magic moment that we're all striving for. So with that, thank you so, so much Jeremy for being on the show.
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Sean.
What I loved about this conversation with Jeremy is it really was a conversation about the humanity behind the work. It's not about optimizing. Everything. It's about finding what works for you and putting your imprint onto the [00:46:00] things that you create. And I really love the idea of you're not trying to find your voice or trying to find that creative.
Instinct that's in yourself. You're trying to find the areas where you're holding back to let go and to allow the connections to be made to allow that impulse and intuition we all have and we have as children to go out and make something better in the world, make something cool in the world, make something worthwhile and impactful in the world.
So for that, I'm eternally thankful for Jeremy for joining us here. So. If you loved this episode of creators that Crush and you want another heavy hitting episode, uh, check out the one I did with Kevin Michael. Here we talk about creator burnout and the seven year creator burnout cycle. Be in the show notes or on YouTube like I just pointed out.
And with that, we'll see you in the next episode of Creators The Crush. This is the Shy Button ear signing [00:47:00] out.
